Recycling Imperfections
A conversation with Dagie Brundert
by Martine De Biasi
A conversation with Dagie Brundert
by Martine De Biasi
Why do you still use Super8 as a medium? You started using it in 1987, and back then Super8 was accessible and easy technology. However, with the rise of the digital age, the format has nearly been forgotten. Today, filming with Super8 seems more cumbersome—you have to deal with film development and sourcing materials. It's a lot more work than just using a smartphone to film, like many do nowadays. What is the special appeal of Super8 for you?
It's clearly an aesthetic reason! Film is simply beautiful. Film is deep and sexy. I understand film, the grain, the layers. I don’t understand digital, and it leaves me cold. Of course, I sometimes make little phone videos, but only as mini-documentation for Instagram and such.
Dealing with the material is what’s so fascinating! I film, I develop, I have to make sure there’s enough light, and because I use a lot of expired film, I’m aware that I might be surprised, as it could look different from what I expected. But that has led to many little wonders. You wouldn't get that with digital, where everything is certain. Super8 has the magic of partial uncertainty!
As a young woman, you studied Visual Communication and Experimental Film. What do you think led you in this direction early on? Could you have imagined becoming something other than an experimental filmmaker (apart from your work as a graphic designer)?
Chance played a role. I was studying, a bit undecided on which direction I’d go—I took photos, drew, loved print techniques ... and then on Monday evenings, there were always these interesting film lectures where, for the first time, I saw the “classic” experimental films, both old and new, from around the world. It opened up a new world for me. That’s how you can film too! And then another professor gave us a Super8 camera to use freely, and I immediately grabbed it, started experimenting, and filmed wildly with a friend. I was instantly fascinated that you can do everything yourself, without a crew, script, or much technology. I built my own little worlds (I started with many animation films).
I could’ve also drawn comics. Starting a great band and singing would have been cool too, but making films was somehow more exciting. After all, I also sing in them ;-)
It's clearly an aesthetic reason! Film is simply beautiful. Film is deep and sexy. I understand film, the grain, the layers. I don’t understand digital, and it leaves me cold. Of course, I sometimes make little phone videos, but only as mini-documentation for Instagram and such.
Dealing with the material is what’s so fascinating! I film, I develop, I have to make sure there’s enough light, and because I use a lot of expired film, I’m aware that I might be surprised, as it could look different from what I expected. But that has led to many little wonders. You wouldn't get that with digital, where everything is certain. Super8 has the magic of partial uncertainty!
As a young woman, you studied Visual Communication and Experimental Film. What do you think led you in this direction early on? Could you have imagined becoming something other than an experimental filmmaker (apart from your work as a graphic designer)?
Chance played a role. I was studying, a bit undecided on which direction I’d go—I took photos, drew, loved print techniques ... and then on Monday evenings, there were always these interesting film lectures where, for the first time, I saw the “classic” experimental films, both old and new, from around the world. It opened up a new world for me. That’s how you can film too! And then another professor gave us a Super8 camera to use freely, and I immediately grabbed it, started experimenting, and filmed wildly with a friend. I was instantly fascinated that you can do everything yourself, without a crew, script, or much technology. I built my own little worlds (I started with many animation films).
I could’ve also drawn comics. Starting a great band and singing would have been cool too, but making films was somehow more exciting. After all, I also sing in them ;-)
How do you integrate elements of chance into your filmmaking process? Do you wake up one morning and think, "I’ll make this film now," or is it more like, "I feel like filming, let’s see what comes of it"?
It’s both, but more the second one. Chance is a great friend of mine! I get around a lot, I love traveling when I can ... and I always have at least one camera with me, with my antennas up, and often discover little things, oddities, things that catch my eye and spark something in me. Maybe they intertwine with ideas I already vaguely have in my head ... and suddenly, a new film begins! So I’m often guided by chance! The world is chaotic and colorful, full of things, situations, absurdities, and beauties just waiting to be discovered!
Like recently on La Gomera ... it was a strange, very quiet and foggy day. I felt like I was in a cloud, and I thought: "Get the camera, load in some black-and-white film, make a cloud film!" And that’s how it came to be (“In Clouds”).
Sometimes, though, it’s world topics, environmental questions, earth problems, or philosophical musings that have been simmering in me for a long time. They get a push from a random occurrence and develop further. For example, I’ve been toying with a film called "Extended Ejaculation" (haha) for some time now. I don’t know yet how to visually depict it, but the idea is there, and I’m sure something will spark it soon—stay tuned!
Are there recurring themes or motifs that run through your body of work? Are there specific questions or ideas that repeatedly fascinate you when filming?
Of course: the wonder of the universe, or rather: what’s the point of it all?! No, seriously … I’m fascinated by the little miracles that appear everywhere. The mushroom storms in the forest floor—the trees’ telephones. The oceans. The mosquito’s lifecycle. Life, communication … and humor hangs over everything. “The universe is poetry,” says the strange voice in “Yksi Kaksi Kolme.”
Could one say that your films open a door to a magical "Dagie-place" for you—a metaphysical world that only exists through your filmmaking?
More like a Dagie-esque view of the “real” world out there/in here! These worlds are already there; you just have to recognize them, and I can do that through my films. And in the best case, I can pass that on to the viewers!
It’s both, but more the second one. Chance is a great friend of mine! I get around a lot, I love traveling when I can ... and I always have at least one camera with me, with my antennas up, and often discover little things, oddities, things that catch my eye and spark something in me. Maybe they intertwine with ideas I already vaguely have in my head ... and suddenly, a new film begins! So I’m often guided by chance! The world is chaotic and colorful, full of things, situations, absurdities, and beauties just waiting to be discovered!
Like recently on La Gomera ... it was a strange, very quiet and foggy day. I felt like I was in a cloud, and I thought: "Get the camera, load in some black-and-white film, make a cloud film!" And that’s how it came to be (“In Clouds”).
Sometimes, though, it’s world topics, environmental questions, earth problems, or philosophical musings that have been simmering in me for a long time. They get a push from a random occurrence and develop further. For example, I’ve been toying with a film called "Extended Ejaculation" (haha) for some time now. I don’t know yet how to visually depict it, but the idea is there, and I’m sure something will spark it soon—stay tuned!
Are there recurring themes or motifs that run through your body of work? Are there specific questions or ideas that repeatedly fascinate you when filming?
Of course: the wonder of the universe, or rather: what’s the point of it all?! No, seriously … I’m fascinated by the little miracles that appear everywhere. The mushroom storms in the forest floor—the trees’ telephones. The oceans. The mosquito’s lifecycle. Life, communication … and humor hangs over everything. “The universe is poetry,” says the strange voice in “Yksi Kaksi Kolme.”
Could one say that your films open a door to a magical "Dagie-place" for you—a metaphysical world that only exists through your filmmaking?
More like a Dagie-esque view of the “real” world out there/in here! These worlds are already there; you just have to recognize them, and I can do that through my films. And in the best case, I can pass that on to the viewers!
You've been producing at least two films per year for two decades. Where do you find the motivation and the money?
The motivation is simply there. Filming makes me happy. And the money? Well, my films are very short, around two to three minutes long. I need one or two cassettes for that. Some development (I often do it myself), some digitization. Sometimes I use expired material that I got as a gift or cheaply. So a film only costs 100 or 200 euros.
Is efficiency relevant in experimental films?
No. Or is it? In terms of cost-effectiveness? I don’t have much waste when filming. Often, even development mistakes turn out beautiful and are included. Over the years, though, I’ve learned to work efficiently. I have a sense for: NOW is the time to film! I never repeat anything. I capture the moment. If it slips away, I’ve missed it, but I often catch it!
Do you edit your films analog or digital?
I always have everything I film fully digitized, and then I edit. With FinalCut. I love it. The sound is also added during editing, though sometimes I’ve already recorded dialogue or sounds beforehand.
How does choosing between black-and-white and color film affect storytelling and the mood in your works? Do you make this decision consciously or intuitively?
I choose intuitively. I always have something suitable in the fridge! Or in my expired film box.
What is your favorite film stock, and what fascinates you about it?
Oh, I think it was Kodak’s Plus-X, black-and-white. And for a short time, there was a 100-ASA black-and-white film from Adox. Both wonderful and very fine-grained. The most beautiful blacks. Easy to develop as negatives too. Oh, and WittnerPan 50—I still have two left, but it's no longer available. All amazing, crisp black-and-white films.
But I actually also quite like the Kodak Vision series (color negative films), especially the one with 50 ASA. Fine-grained and beautiful colors! A summer film!
The motivation is simply there. Filming makes me happy. And the money? Well, my films are very short, around two to three minutes long. I need one or two cassettes for that. Some development (I often do it myself), some digitization. Sometimes I use expired material that I got as a gift or cheaply. So a film only costs 100 or 200 euros.
Is efficiency relevant in experimental films?
No. Or is it? In terms of cost-effectiveness? I don’t have much waste when filming. Often, even development mistakes turn out beautiful and are included. Over the years, though, I’ve learned to work efficiently. I have a sense for: NOW is the time to film! I never repeat anything. I capture the moment. If it slips away, I’ve missed it, but I often catch it!
Do you edit your films analog or digital?
I always have everything I film fully digitized, and then I edit. With FinalCut. I love it. The sound is also added during editing, though sometimes I’ve already recorded dialogue or sounds beforehand.
How does choosing between black-and-white and color film affect storytelling and the mood in your works? Do you make this decision consciously or intuitively?
I choose intuitively. I always have something suitable in the fridge! Or in my expired film box.
What is your favorite film stock, and what fascinates you about it?
Oh, I think it was Kodak’s Plus-X, black-and-white. And for a short time, there was a 100-ASA black-and-white film from Adox. Both wonderful and very fine-grained. The most beautiful blacks. Easy to develop as negatives too. Oh, and WittnerPan 50—I still have two left, but it's no longer available. All amazing, crisp black-and-white films.
But I actually also quite like the Kodak Vision series (color negative films), especially the one with 50 ASA. Fine-grained and beautiful colors! A summer film!
You are known in the experimental film scene for your work with alternative developers like coffee or tea. How did that come about, and what excites you about it to this day?
I’ve always loved developing my films myself. And since the 90s, more and more labs have shut down, so you had no choice anyway! I started researching: are there alternatives to all the toxic chemicals? And I stumbled upon CAFFENOL. That was about 15 years ago. An American chemistry class invented it in the 90s and gave it its name. Coffee, vitamin C, and washing soda. I tried it right away and was thrilled with the wonderful result. Naturally, I had to try more after realizing it’s the acid in the coffee. Cherries! Wine! Whiskey! I thought—everything has acid! … and that’s how it started, and I haven’t stopped since.
The results vary depending on the strength of the acid, with the contrasts being different, but there’s almost always an image. Strong acid, strong contrasts. Weaker acid, softer gray tones.
I’m fascinated that I can cook a liter of developer from a handful of vegan food scraps (like kiwi, potato, or banana peels) that’s enough for one film!
And I love when I’m in a particular place and filming there, and I use the locally growing plants or the local drinks as developing substances! It has a certain magic!
How complicated is it actually to develop films yourself?
Not at all. You only need a development vessel—it could even be a bucket (in a completely dark room), but a development tank (Jobo / Paterson photo tank or super pro: Lomotank) is better. You should always account for the fact that something could go wrong. Temperature and time are important—experience counts. But there are plenty of tutorials online.
Can you explain the basic elements of a good alternative developer?
Let’s take Caffenol, the universal bio-developer! Three elements: the coffee acid in instant coffee converts the silver salts in the film emulsion into metallic (visible) silver—the foundation of black-and-white negative photography! Washing soda is needed to achieve the right pH balance in the solution and gives it a good kick; it’s the activator. Vitamin C is the “little developer,” cleaning the grain and increasing contrast.
Instead of coffee, you can use various other teas, broths, or juices, but you always need washing soda and vitamin C as well.
I’ve always loved developing my films myself. And since the 90s, more and more labs have shut down, so you had no choice anyway! I started researching: are there alternatives to all the toxic chemicals? And I stumbled upon CAFFENOL. That was about 15 years ago. An American chemistry class invented it in the 90s and gave it its name. Coffee, vitamin C, and washing soda. I tried it right away and was thrilled with the wonderful result. Naturally, I had to try more after realizing it’s the acid in the coffee. Cherries! Wine! Whiskey! I thought—everything has acid! … and that’s how it started, and I haven’t stopped since.
The results vary depending on the strength of the acid, with the contrasts being different, but there’s almost always an image. Strong acid, strong contrasts. Weaker acid, softer gray tones.
I’m fascinated that I can cook a liter of developer from a handful of vegan food scraps (like kiwi, potato, or banana peels) that’s enough for one film!
And I love when I’m in a particular place and filming there, and I use the locally growing plants or the local drinks as developing substances! It has a certain magic!
How complicated is it actually to develop films yourself?
Not at all. You only need a development vessel—it could even be a bucket (in a completely dark room), but a development tank (Jobo / Paterson photo tank or super pro: Lomotank) is better. You should always account for the fact that something could go wrong. Temperature and time are important—experience counts. But there are plenty of tutorials online.
Can you explain the basic elements of a good alternative developer?
Let’s take Caffenol, the universal bio-developer! Three elements: the coffee acid in instant coffee converts the silver salts in the film emulsion into metallic (visible) silver—the foundation of black-and-white negative photography! Washing soda is needed to achieve the right pH balance in the solution and gives it a good kick; it’s the activator. Vitamin C is the “little developer,” cleaning the grain and increasing contrast.
Instead of coffee, you can use various other teas, broths, or juices, but you always need washing soda and vitamin C as well.
Many photographic instruments and industrial developers are designed for precision. How precise are you when experimenting with alternative processes? Is experimental film perhaps the opposite of precision?
I would answer this with a smiling YES. That’s the beauty of these bio-developers: they’re not exact. The recipes are based on experience and are flexible. Whether you use 54 or 61 grams of soda makes little difference. My vegan food-scrap soup develops a little warmer today than tomorrow. Maybe it’s because of the orange peels? Forget 100% predictability or repeatable results. But that’s where the surprises come from: turmeric makes things yellow!
Maybe it’s not for everyone, but I’m convinced: only where the imperfect, the unpredictable, the playful reigns, can intense creativity and surprise thrive! (Ever heard of Wabi-Sabi? If not, Google it!)
You also develop films professionally—people can send you their Super8 films, and you handle the development. You specialize in old, found, and expired films. How did that come about?
At some point, people started emailing me, asking where they could still develop old Kodachrome films (whose labs shut down in the early 2000s). I told them: nowhere, but I can do it as a black-and-white negative! That’s how it started. Now I don’t just develop old Kodachrome; I also handle color films like Agfa, Revue, ORWO, etc. Sometimes even 35mm negatives.
There’s always a risk that the results will be poor—I always mention that beforehand—because after decades of fluctuating temperatures or insufficient light during shooting, the result can be blurry or completely image-free. But I’ve also been able to save many old family treasures and newly shot films, which makes me almost as happy as the owners!
I would answer this with a smiling YES. That’s the beauty of these bio-developers: they’re not exact. The recipes are based on experience and are flexible. Whether you use 54 or 61 grams of soda makes little difference. My vegan food-scrap soup develops a little warmer today than tomorrow. Maybe it’s because of the orange peels? Forget 100% predictability or repeatable results. But that’s where the surprises come from: turmeric makes things yellow!
Maybe it’s not for everyone, but I’m convinced: only where the imperfect, the unpredictable, the playful reigns, can intense creativity and surprise thrive! (Ever heard of Wabi-Sabi? If not, Google it!)
You also develop films professionally—people can send you their Super8 films, and you handle the development. You specialize in old, found, and expired films. How did that come about?
At some point, people started emailing me, asking where they could still develop old Kodachrome films (whose labs shut down in the early 2000s). I told them: nowhere, but I can do it as a black-and-white negative! That’s how it started. Now I don’t just develop old Kodachrome; I also handle color films like Agfa, Revue, ORWO, etc. Sometimes even 35mm negatives.
There’s always a risk that the results will be poor—I always mention that beforehand—because after decades of fluctuating temperatures or insufficient light during shooting, the result can be blurry or completely image-free. But I’ve also been able to save many old family treasures and newly shot films, which makes me almost as happy as the owners!
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23 Barbiepuppen kippen um
(23 Barbie Dolls Collapse) 1988 • 3 mins • Colour • Super 8 • my first film! • with Gesine Jochems One after the other… |
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I see the sea and the sea sees me
2011 • 1.45 min • Double Super 8 • b/w • double exposed why do boys always throw stones into the sea? Coping with infinity...… |
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Kartoffel
2013 • 3.05 min • Super 8 • b&w • developed in potato juice Summer outside, a sack of potatoes from the farmer, cut, carved letters, stamped title and finally shredded half the bag: foamy juice! |
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Katzenlotto
2017 • 2.48 min • Super 8 • b&w 49 french fries forks stuck in 49 slimy cat food cubes. Which will be the first six Tabi the cat is going to choose and devour? |
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Kicherlotto
2019 • 3:15 min • b&w • Super 8 From the series: how can I find the right lotto numbers? Part 2. I number my chickpeas from 1 to 49. I want to play the lottery and I need 6 correct numbers. The fastest seedlings will be the right ones! |
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Wie ich einmal nicht durch ein Wurmloch kam
2017 • 3.45 min • s/w • Doppel 8 People are driven by curiosity, must always go somewhere else, where they have never been. New worlds attract, shimmer through portals. |
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Dalai Dalai
2020 • 4.02 min • Super 8 I was always wondering why the Dalai Lama wouldn't reincarnate as a girl. Always boys, one after the other, for almost 400 years so far. But I guess I know why. And it will change. |
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Oceanwalk
2019 • 1.06 min • Colour • Super 8 I developed an old Kodachrome super 8 film in a soup made from kelp, coffee, vitamin c and washing soda! |
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Yksi Kaksi Kolme
2020 • 3.03 min • b&w • Super 8 I fold the time, I press the spiral down one dimension less, from four to three, then two suddenly collapse and see each other! |
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In Wolken / In Clouds
2024 • 1.21 min • Super 8 One day in 45 was different from the others ... in the morning I couldn't see a single palm tree clearly and I was wandering around dirt tracks, everything was damp and grey, the colours had disappeared, it smelled of earth and lush plants and I felt like I was in the middle of a huge cloud. |
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Dagie Brundert is a Berlin-based filmmaker and pinhole photographer who fell in love with her Super 8 camera in 1988. She has been an artist in residence at Echo Park Film Centre (Los Angeles) and LIFT (Toronto), and is the recipient of lifetime achievement awards for Super 8 films at Images Festival (Toronto) and Open Air Festival (Weiterstadt). Since 2008 she has delivered workshops across the world on alternative, eco-friendly film development techniques.
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© August 2024 / Martine De Biasi / photo Vincenzo Mancuso / Analogica